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cayley_graph 52 minutes ago [-]
You and people you know will lead worse and less fulfilling lives due to this. You, or someone you love, will likely die of causes that would have been preventable without this destruction of domestic science. Academic culture undoubtedly needed reform, but this evisceration bent on shortsighted retribution will help absolutely nobody.
contemporary343 40 minutes ago [-]
If you haven't read it already, it's really worth digesting the arguments Vannevar Bush made regarding funding basic science in 1945 (Science: The Endless Frontier) which resulted in the NSF as we know it being founded:
"A nation which depends upon others for its new basic scientific knowl-
edge will be slow in its industrial progress and weak in its competitive
position in world trade, regardless of its mechanical skill."
I think FROs are certainly worth exploring, but if we're diverting vast amounts of funding to existing research infrastructure and talent to funding them, the opportunity costs are huge. This is not well appreciated, but universities are in fact very cheap places to do research compared to any modern alternative one might construct. I suspect FROs will end up being much more expensive just for structural reasons, and will end up re-discovering the university bundle slowly and piece by piece. Moreover, for many types of research they will have to effectively rebuild a range of infrastructure (facilities, equipment, etc.) that already exists at universities throughout the country.
None of this justifies blowing up the extensive basic research infrastructure we have today in pursuit of unproven experiments. Once they're proven, a conversation can be had about how to reconfigure existing assets and new government-funded approaches. But such discussions must include congress, the appropriators of the funds.
tacomonstrous 58 minutes ago [-]
”For example, it allows NSF to make awards to nontraditional recipients such as a limited partnership or a venture capital firm, some of which might have been created solely for the purpose of receiving the NSF award. It also allows NSF to make additional awards without the need to review a new application.”
obvious grifting opportunity
avs733 30 minutes ago [-]
I think this is the larger point that is easy to miss.
Thinking about this as slashing science or making it more efficient or short sighted or innovative is all a distraction.
It’s just another opportunity to give money to the friends of those in government and take money from those you don’t. Say want you want about how it used to be, but this and the new rules around “political oversight” are just corruption and grift that are either wearing a mask of ideology or efficiency based on your political stance
2 hours ago [-]
TimorousBestie 4 hours ago [-]
More or less a handout to the tech industry. This is just the STTR program with even less oversight and a questionable funding source.
Curious what the plan is when the academic pipeline for training researchers collapses entirely. AI all the things?
contemporary343 4 hours ago [-]
I think it's also a way to reduce funding to universities (which are politically disfavored), since other things like arbitrary reductions to indirect costs didn't work. It also defies both congressional will in the appropriations bill (which is directorate-specific) and of course the whole charter and mandate of NSF, from Vannevar Bush's original case for it.
TimorousBestie 4 hours ago [-]
Yeah, this is all well-attested.
It’s so weird. Presumably the conservatives still want the US to be a superpower, which presumably includes high-tech capabilities like global power projection, missile defense, and persistent space operations. At the same time they seemingly want a Cultural Revolution-like decimation of intellectuals.
I don’t see how they believe they can attain both objectives at once.
solid_fuel 3 hours ago [-]
> Presumably the conservatives still want the US to be a superpower,
I used to think that too, but it seems evident the current crop of conservatives is only interested in hurting people they don’t like and funneling money into the pockets of oligarchs. It’s pretty evident now that none of this is being done out of patriotism or a genuine desire to improve America.
exe34 3 hours ago [-]
> Presumably the conservatives still want the US to be a superpower
Why would you presume that? Isn't enough that they get rich and powerful as compared to others around them?
2 hours ago [-]
hilariously 4 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
tennfown 4 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
monknomo 3 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
SoftTalker 2 hours ago [-]
There's at least a subset of them who do not. They want isolationism. Almost a juche sort of mentality. Stop propping up Europe/NATO. "No more foreign wars" was their rallying point. The Iran war really brought them to the surface, a lot of them were very unhappy with the Trump administration about that.
magicalist 1 hours ago [-]
> The Iran war really brought them to the surface, a lot of them were very unhappy with the Trump administration about that.
So, like...Thomas Massie and Rand Paul?
There were only four republicans in the House and four in the Senate to vote to limit war powers, and I don't think you could claim Murkowski or Collins are isolationists.
Or did you mean this subset was "very unhappy" in like a completely impotent and meaningless way, but they'll have been 100% against it six months or 2.5 or 4.5 years from now?
TimorousBestie 1 hours ago [-]
> Or did you mean this subset was "very unhappy" in like a completely impotent and meaningless way?
That’s how I understood it, yes. So unhappy that they’ll write him in for a third term.
counters 2 hours ago [-]
But not even. At least in the domain I work in, there is virtually no interest of engaging with these NSF programs. Regardless of what's put in writing in the calls for applicants, there's still a significant prejudice that NSF - by being a part of the government - will be slow and ineffective at administering awards, and therefore it's a waste of time for any agile, fast-moving company.
On the flip-side, my academic colleagues are tearing out their hair trying to get some - any - funding to support their labs. I'm completely inundated with request from colleagues to provide an LOI or some other evidence that our company is interested in working with their lab on something. But that's even _less_ attractive for many private companies!
wahnfrieden 3 hours ago [-]
It’s a political revenge move, there’s no strategy toward a better outcome such as AI (however questionable that would be) as that’s not the point of it
adastra22 2 hours ago [-]
That seems like typical establishment / reactionary push-back. NSF is spinning up Focused Research Organizations, which are very effective ways of getting basic research done that wouldn't otherwise be funded, and to do so in a way that allows for commercial spin-offs. That's not a handout.
TimorousBestie 1 hours ago [-]
The whole point of an FRO is to have less oversight than a traditional government grant or contract.
ck2 3 hours ago [-]
again, it's all Russell Vought
most people know who Stephen Miller is but the real monster is Russell Vought
Heritage Foundation's #1 enforcer, the destruction of science and academia is their top 10
if Vance, their prized successor, somehow gets the reins in 2029 country is absolutely cooked
They say they care about spending but ignore DOD financial shenanigans, which implies it's not about spending and only about what they like.
ianm218 3 hours ago [-]
> By levying such a large tax on its other programs, the agency appears to be defying a congressional directive in the final FY 2026 appropriations bill that “No [NSF] directorate shall receive more than a 5 percent reduction relative to the fiscal year 2024 enacted level.” That language was meant to address fears by the research community and some legislators that NSF, if its overall budget remained flat, might decide to grow TIP at the expense of its other directorates—a concern that now appears prescient.
What I find so hard to wrangle is that the Trump admin does almost everything in an illegal hamfisted way, whatever their doing gets stricken down by courts, and then a year later we’re just spending time and resources undoing the obviously illegal things they do.
This change even seems like a positive one I wish they should just pass a bill like a normal government.
anigbrowl 1 hours ago [-]
Yes. imho it's impeachable because the repeated defiance of Congress indicates an unwillingness to 'faithfully execute the laws'. I'm pretty sure you could measure the statistical probability of this being intentional rather than simply erroneous by looking at the distributions of affirmations or reversals in court decisions.
Ar-Curunir 2 hours ago [-]
This is not a positive change. Applied research that makes profits is for industry. Industry will never fund curiosity-driven research in any amount, so the government needs to do it. Redirecting government funding for a function already served by industry is stupid and just another vehicle for corruption.
ianm218 2 hours ago [-]
> Created in 2022, TIP’s mission is to address the decades-old complaint that the agency, traditionally focused on curiosity-driven research with no obvious commercial value, needs to do more to make sure scientific discoveries eventually benefit society—in new jobs and products, improved health care, or a rising standard of living.
This seems like a decent initiative started under Biden’s pro technology/ industrial policy umbrella. It was launched as part of the hugely successful CHIPS act.
Your critique is a false dichotomy. There is a large spectrum between “purely curiosity driven research” and “research that has near term venture outcomes” where applied research lives. Something like the Bell Lans semi conductor and related research would fit into this. Not immediately venture scale focused research, but could lead to it.
Just because Trump is repurposing it for illegal grift doesn’t mean it’s a bad group to put resources into in general.
pphysch 3 hours ago [-]
The next generation of life-improving technologies will likely come out of AI/robotics trained on high-quality data that hasn't been collected yet. Medical, ecological, resource and waste management, agriculture, home automation, etc.
Scientists are literal pros at identifying and collecting (if not organizing) high-quality data.
This really should be a period of supercharging basic science in recognition of that, not looting it.
BenFranklin100 3 hours ago [-]
Rest assured, this will likely come with no small amount of grift.
The Trump administration has already installed political appointees in America’s federal R&D organizations including the NIH and NSF. They have final say on funding decisions. These appointees override grant peer review and regular agency channels. It’s all part of Russel Vought/Project 2025’s unitary executive theory.
These NSF initiatives could well be the next logical step to channel millions of research funds to politically connected companies and organizations. Something similar happened with the recent Reflecting Pool fiasco where the federal contracts were give to Trump donors.
There’s no reason not to believe this will also happen to America’s federal R&D. Grift aside, there’s no reason either not to believe the funds will be given to Trump administration pet projects of dubious scientific value.
Hikikomori 3 hours ago [-]
>It’s all part of Russel Vought/Project 2025’s unitary executive theory
And its heavily inspired by the nazi Carl schmitt that created the legal foundation for Hitlers rule.
tennfown 3 hours ago [-]
> Rest assured, this will likely come with no small amount of grift.
I naturally expect this money to go to tech companies who have time and time again proven their ability to innovate and thrive in the bleeding edge: basically Oracle.
srean 3 hours ago [-]
I hope everyone gets it that it is sarcasm, painful as it is.
jagged-chisel 3 hours ago [-]
Oracle innovate? This must be sarcasm.
wirtSalthouse 3 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
wirtSalthouse 3 hours ago [-]
“According to a June 18 memo…”
That’s cool, bruh. Can we see the memo?
Symbiote 2 hours ago [-]
No. It's confidential and the reporter has seem it, but to protect their source isn't going to share it verbatim.
2 hours ago [-]
josefritzishere 4 hours ago [-]
That's not suspicious or anything...
secretsatan 3 hours ago [-]
It’s to repay the bribes
charcircuit 3 hours ago [-]
Making an effort so that the tax payers are getting a return on their investment instead of letting it go up in smoke is a good thing.
khalic 3 hours ago [-]
Fundamental Science is responsible for most of the money being generated today, Einstein…
defterGoose 3 hours ago [-]
What a hilariously fact- and understanding-free piece of ragebait.
Ar-Curunir 2 hours ago [-]
Please don’t say things which reveal how stupid you are.
Essentially all technological advances today stem from fundamental research.
It’s fine if you don’t want these advances, but then don’t complain when your life expectancy regresses.
tlb 3 hours ago [-]
15 years ago you could argue that venture capital wasn't funding enough advanced tech, so ideas were failing to cross the gap from pure research to commercial development. But lately there's capital available for quantum computers, fusion, synthetic bio, space exploration, asteroid mining, and lots more. The government is going to suck at funding the right things. They should leave tech transfer to private investors, and focus on funding pure science.
tech_ken 13 minutes ago [-]
> The government is going to suck at funding the right things
I'm pretty sure you have this totally backwards. People who study scientific development seem to think that the government is actually a really effective funder of research, and covers gaps that would never be addressed by private industry. See for example:
> quantum computers, fusion, synthetic bio, space exploration, asteroid mining
Poster children for tech with no realistic commercial prospects. Projects in these fields have been pipe dreams for decades. Where are any commercial products in the areas of fusion reactors? Quantum computers? Asteroid mining operations?
If private investors want to fund this stuff, fine. As long as they don't come seeking bailouts later.
mitthrowaway2 59 minutes ago [-]
General Fusion's approach seems pretty realistically commercializable. They're struggling to get any funding though, probably a symptom of being in Canada.
actionfromafar 50 minutes ago [-]
A symptom of not bribing the Orange Purse King?
malfist 2 hours ago [-]
Not only that, but fusion itself is absolutely not what a tech venture capitalist wants to fund. The research horizon for fusion power is in the multiple decades. You're never going to find an investor that says "Yeah, I'll give you enough money to build a fusion reactor and do research for 20+ years in the hopes that you get something workable"
Fusion is literally still in the pure science stage that OP was telling governments to stick too.
charcircuit 27 minutes ago [-]
The same thing could have been said about AGI 10 years ago.
searine 2 hours ago [-]
>The government is going to suck at funding the right things.
The government is actually really really good at funding the right things. The grant process has been extremely successful in directing funding efficiently towards cutting edge ideas. It does this by handing off the decision making to experts who review proposals rather than having political/profit driven kingmakers.
In contrast corporate/VC money mostly only funds the latest shiny bauble that may result in exit liquidity in a few years. The minority investments in things like fusion are still only applied work and are built on decades of unprofitable basic science.
In other words. Government funding has basically funded every science/tech breakthrough of the last 80 years.
lowercased 2 hours ago [-]
Spot on.
lostdog 34 minutes ago [-]
> But lately there's capital available for quantum computers, fusion, synthetic bio, space exploration, asteroid mining, and lots more
Hmm I wonder how these were originally funded when it was less likely that they would work.
And by cutting funding now, I wonder what we're missing out on in the future.
downrightmike 3 hours ago [-]
Tax payers fund the research, they should get a cut of whatever company uses that research.
epistasis 3 hours ago [-]
Disagree heartily, the research should be for basic science that's not directly patentable. It should develop the base upon which everything else is built, that's the part of the science that can't get funded through private money. Leave the private money to the parts that can be monetized.
Of course, that's all generalities, sometimes directly monetizable stuff does come out of basic research. But the NFS should focus on basic research, because nobody else will in the US, and if we want to have it here at all, have the practitioners, have the knowledge, and then also reap the economic rewards because we have those people here, we need to fund the basic science that politicians love to mock and criticize.
counters 2 hours ago [-]
That would be a crappy trade; today, the public benefits multiple times over as commercialization of technology drives the innovation economy. Who cares about sharing a measly fraction of direct profits when we all get long-term growth of our investment and retirement portfolios at upwards of 10% annually?
tlb 3 hours ago [-]
They do as soon as that company makes a profit, or anyone sells shares in that company.
mothballed 3 hours ago [-]
In theory, sure. In practice what the taxpayers get in exchange for their taxes is they are buying a better likelihood to not have the IRS drag them to jail or all their shit carried away / seized by feds, and the 'deal' ends there (unless you count whatever power you think you get from voting, LMAO). The taxes and public collection of profits are materially in possession of congress and/or the executive. The public is basically getting dick from that (most of FICA tax goes back to the public though maybe though not as ROI just redistribution so the poors don't riot), the politicians then use their money to bomb girls' schools in Iran or prosecute Amish for having an uninspected slaughterhouse or whatever else gets their sadistic jollies going.
The sooner the public learns that the public coffers aren't theirs, and will never be theirs, the better.
derbOac 2 hours ago [-]
Agreed. Imagine an IPO where you put in money and then get no returns. Who would invest?
pfortuny 2 hours ago [-]
That is in part why corporate taxes exist.
malfist 2 hours ago [-]
Sure they exist. But there's so many write offs and loop holes it doesn't really matter.
speed_spread 42 minutes ago [-]
Taxpayers get their cut through results being public for anyone to use. It's science for a better society at large, not for the benefit of the few that can wield it.
https://nsf-gov-resources.nsf.gov/2023-04/EndlessFrontier75t...
"A nation which depends upon others for its new basic scientific knowl- edge will be slow in its industrial progress and weak in its competitive position in world trade, regardless of its mechanical skill."
I think FROs are certainly worth exploring, but if we're diverting vast amounts of funding to existing research infrastructure and talent to funding them, the opportunity costs are huge. This is not well appreciated, but universities are in fact very cheap places to do research compared to any modern alternative one might construct. I suspect FROs will end up being much more expensive just for structural reasons, and will end up re-discovering the university bundle slowly and piece by piece. Moreover, for many types of research they will have to effectively rebuild a range of infrastructure (facilities, equipment, etc.) that already exists at universities throughout the country.
None of this justifies blowing up the extensive basic research infrastructure we have today in pursuit of unproven experiments. Once they're proven, a conversation can be had about how to reconfigure existing assets and new government-funded approaches. But such discussions must include congress, the appropriators of the funds.
obvious grifting opportunity
Thinking about this as slashing science or making it more efficient or short sighted or innovative is all a distraction.
It’s just another opportunity to give money to the friends of those in government and take money from those you don’t. Say want you want about how it used to be, but this and the new rules around “political oversight” are just corruption and grift that are either wearing a mask of ideology or efficiency based on your political stance
Curious what the plan is when the academic pipeline for training researchers collapses entirely. AI all the things?
It’s so weird. Presumably the conservatives still want the US to be a superpower, which presumably includes high-tech capabilities like global power projection, missile defense, and persistent space operations. At the same time they seemingly want a Cultural Revolution-like decimation of intellectuals.
I don’t see how they believe they can attain both objectives at once.
I used to think that too, but it seems evident the current crop of conservatives is only interested in hurting people they don’t like and funneling money into the pockets of oligarchs. It’s pretty evident now that none of this is being done out of patriotism or a genuine desire to improve America.
Why would you presume that? Isn't enough that they get rich and powerful as compared to others around them?
So, like...Thomas Massie and Rand Paul?
There were only four republicans in the House and four in the Senate to vote to limit war powers, and I don't think you could claim Murkowski or Collins are isolationists.
Or did you mean this subset was "very unhappy" in like a completely impotent and meaningless way, but they'll have been 100% against it six months or 2.5 or 4.5 years from now?
That’s how I understood it, yes. So unhappy that they’ll write him in for a third term.
On the flip-side, my academic colleagues are tearing out their hair trying to get some - any - funding to support their labs. I'm completely inundated with request from colleagues to provide an LOI or some other evidence that our company is interested in working with their lab on something. But that's even _less_ attractive for many private companies!
most people know who Stephen Miller is but the real monster is Russell Vought
Heritage Foundation's #1 enforcer, the destruction of science and academia is their top 10
if Vance, their prized successor, somehow gets the reins in 2029 country is absolutely cooked
* https://www.propublica.org/article/russ-vought-trump-shadow-...
* https://www.propublica.org/article/video-donald-trump-russ-v...
What I find so hard to wrangle is that the Trump admin does almost everything in an illegal hamfisted way, whatever their doing gets stricken down by courts, and then a year later we’re just spending time and resources undoing the obviously illegal things they do.
This change even seems like a positive one I wish they should just pass a bill like a normal government.
This seems like a decent initiative started under Biden’s pro technology/ industrial policy umbrella. It was launched as part of the hugely successful CHIPS act.
Your critique is a false dichotomy. There is a large spectrum between “purely curiosity driven research” and “research that has near term venture outcomes” where applied research lives. Something like the Bell Lans semi conductor and related research would fit into this. Not immediately venture scale focused research, but could lead to it.
Just because Trump is repurposing it for illegal grift doesn’t mean it’s a bad group to put resources into in general.
Scientists are literal pros at identifying and collecting (if not organizing) high-quality data.
This really should be a period of supercharging basic science in recognition of that, not looting it.
The Trump administration has already installed political appointees in America’s federal R&D organizations including the NIH and NSF. They have final say on funding decisions. These appointees override grant peer review and regular agency channels. It’s all part of Russel Vought/Project 2025’s unitary executive theory.
These NSF initiatives could well be the next logical step to channel millions of research funds to politically connected companies and organizations. Something similar happened with the recent Reflecting Pool fiasco where the federal contracts were give to Trump donors.
There’s no reason not to believe this will also happen to America’s federal R&D. Grift aside, there’s no reason either not to believe the funds will be given to Trump administration pet projects of dubious scientific value.
And its heavily inspired by the nazi Carl schmitt that created the legal foundation for Hitlers rule.
I naturally expect this money to go to tech companies who have time and time again proven their ability to innovate and thrive in the bleeding edge: basically Oracle.
Essentially all technological advances today stem from fundamental research. It’s fine if you don’t want these advances, but then don’t complain when your life expectancy regresses.
I'm pretty sure you have this totally backwards. People who study scientific development seem to think that the government is actually a really effective funder of research, and covers gaps that would never be addressed by private industry. See for example:
* https://www.aau.edu/newsroom/leading-research-universities-r...
* https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2022/07/government-fun...
* https://www.americanscientist.org/article/%E2%80%9Cwhy-are-w...
Poster children for tech with no realistic commercial prospects. Projects in these fields have been pipe dreams for decades. Where are any commercial products in the areas of fusion reactors? Quantum computers? Asteroid mining operations?
If private investors want to fund this stuff, fine. As long as they don't come seeking bailouts later.
Fusion is literally still in the pure science stage that OP was telling governments to stick too.
The government is actually really really good at funding the right things. The grant process has been extremely successful in directing funding efficiently towards cutting edge ideas. It does this by handing off the decision making to experts who review proposals rather than having political/profit driven kingmakers.
In contrast corporate/VC money mostly only funds the latest shiny bauble that may result in exit liquidity in a few years. The minority investments in things like fusion are still only applied work and are built on decades of unprofitable basic science.
In other words. Government funding has basically funded every science/tech breakthrough of the last 80 years.
Hmm I wonder how these were originally funded when it was less likely that they would work.
And by cutting funding now, I wonder what we're missing out on in the future.
Of course, that's all generalities, sometimes directly monetizable stuff does come out of basic research. But the NFS should focus on basic research, because nobody else will in the US, and if we want to have it here at all, have the practitioners, have the knowledge, and then also reap the economic rewards because we have those people here, we need to fund the basic science that politicians love to mock and criticize.
The sooner the public learns that the public coffers aren't theirs, and will never be theirs, the better.